Posts by Doug Mason

77

Interpret John 1:1 by John 1:1.

by towerwatchman in

interpret john 1:1 by john 1:1. .

the greek language has the definite article which has approximately thirty variations, is translated into english as “the”, and points to an identifiable personality, someone we have prior knowledge of.

but the greek language has no indefinite article corresponding to the english “a”, or “an”.

Doug Mason

towerwatchman,

I can provide the chiasm, but I would first like people to investigate for themselves because activity is the best way to learn and for things to stick. So let's just wait a while and see what people discover is the focus of the chiasm and hence its purpose. At the same time, it provides an understanding of what the Johannine Community intended with that opening as well as providing a mechanism for understanding the message of the remainder of their Gospel.

The Prologue was written well after that community had developed their High Christology, much later than other parts of the Gospel. The aporia are used by scholars (and I am most certainly not one!) to distinguish the individual elements of the Gospel and their likely location in the evolution of its writing.

In my understanding, the Johannine Community was directly addressing its own community members and referencing their experiences at the hand of the synagogue community. As for 1 John, rather than seeing it as addressing Gnosticism, I understand that it was addressing those who had been members of the Johannine Community but had formed their own breakaway schism.

I agree that these Johannine writings concern that Community's views on Christ (and hence on their soteriology). The writers (and I include Paul in this regard) were not writing theology. They were addressing their immediate and local concerns.

Doug

77

Interpret John 1:1 by John 1:1.

by towerwatchman in

interpret john 1:1 by john 1:1. .

the greek language has the definite article which has approximately thirty variations, is translated into english as “the”, and points to an identifiable personality, someone we have prior knowledge of.

but the greek language has no indefinite article corresponding to the english “a”, or “an”.

Doug Mason

After you have formed the chiasm to discover the focus of John 1:1-18, then research the experiences of the Johannine Community that created that Prologue. This passage was created late in their experience, when they had moved well into their High Christology.

Google for Johannine Community. Here is a starter:

http://archive.hsscol.org.hk/Archive/periodical/abstract/A012k.htm

Doug

77

Interpret John 1:1 by John 1:1.

by towerwatchman in

interpret john 1:1 by john 1:1. .

the greek language has the definite article which has approximately thirty variations, is translated into english as “the”, and points to an identifiable personality, someone we have prior knowledge of.

but the greek language has no indefinite article corresponding to the english “a”, or “an”.

Doug Mason

Create the chiasm for John 1:1-18 and you will then see what the passage is really all about.

The Hebrew writings are full of chiasms. The name comes from the Greek letter CHI (like a long X), which is formed when each related element is joined with a straight line.

If you need guidance, then Google.

Doug

6

Take a second look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i am about halfway through the first draft of my study into the evolution of judaeo-christian soteriology.. while it is fashionable to disagree with the beliefs of "other" religions, be it the watchtower, mormons or islam, consistency requires the same position must be applied to any and all belief systems.

my study is not aimed specifically at the watchtower, although much of it will prove uncomfortable for jws.. i recommend that if a person's faith is weak, they should not read my study.

they should limit their reading to books and articles that support the beliefs they already hold.

Doug Mason

snowbird,

It is my understanding that the writings were produced by a community of Jews (nowadays known as the "Johannine Community") that was expelled from the synagogue because of their Christology.

Much of the Gospel and 1 John reflects and describes the Community's beliefs as well as its antipathey towards the synagogue (aka "Jews", even though they themselves were Jews) as well as their anitpathy to those who left the Johannine Community ("those who were once with us").

The "signs" may be read at the literal superifical level (Book of "Signs" runs from John ch 2 to 12) but there is a layer that conveys the history and beliefs of the Community.

Their focus lay with the revelation of God through Jesus, the "Light", the "Way", so their focus lay with the Incarnation, unlike Pauls, whose focus was the Resurrection.

I have yet to discover whether Lazarus was a member of that Community, so I am keen to see any information that you are able to provide me with.

Thanks,

Doug

6

Take a second look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i am about halfway through the first draft of my study into the evolution of judaeo-christian soteriology.. while it is fashionable to disagree with the beliefs of "other" religions, be it the watchtower, mormons or islam, consistency requires the same position must be applied to any and all belief systems.

my study is not aimed specifically at the watchtower, although much of it will prove uncomfortable for jws.. i recommend that if a person's faith is weak, they should not read my study.

they should limit their reading to books and articles that support the beliefs they already hold.

Doug Mason

Thank you,

I have now shown you the overall structure and the areas where I wish to address -- and obviously learn. I think that in future I will show you each individual Chapter as I draft it.

My next focus will be on John's Gospel and 1 John. That will be for me a highlight and so different to Paul. After that, I think I should look at the Gospel of Thomas. Any information to inspire me will be greatly appreciated.

Doug

6

Take a second look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i am about halfway through the first draft of my study into the evolution of judaeo-christian soteriology.. while it is fashionable to disagree with the beliefs of "other" religions, be it the watchtower, mormons or islam, consistency requires the same position must be applied to any and all belief systems.

my study is not aimed specifically at the watchtower, although much of it will prove uncomfortable for jws.. i recommend that if a person's faith is weak, they should not read my study.

they should limit their reading to books and articles that support the beliefs they already hold.

Doug Mason

Hi,

I am about halfway through the First Draft of my Study into the evolution of Judaeo-Christian soteriology.

While it is fashionable to disagree with the beliefs of "other" religions, be it the Watchtower, Mormons or Islam, consistency requires the same position must be applied to any and all belief systems. My Study is not aimed specifically at the Watchtower, although much of it will prove uncomfortable for JWs.

I recommend that if a person's faith is weak, they should not read my Study. They should limit their reading to books and articles that support the beliefs they already hold. My Study challenges - it often challenges me.

Primarily, I am making this available to obtain any feedback and suggestions. The 50% rough first draft is available at:

http://www.jwstudies.com/Take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf

Regards,

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Hi Perry,

Thanks for your thoughts. I especially appreciate the dates you give for those documents. The date of 65-80 for the earliest Gospel ["Mark" - who was not a disciple] is decades after the Jesus-event. Given that according to tradition Paul died in 64 CE, your list shows which writings are incorrectlly attributed to him. I did not see 2 Peter but since it followed Jude, that would correspond with the generally accepted date of mid to late 2nd century.

Your dates for the writings of the Johannine community likewise show the lateness in the evolution of their thinking and experience. The Johannine writings reflect the way they (the "beloved disciple") were handled by the mainstream Judaeo-Christian community and their points of difference.

Acts of the Apostles is so discredited as a reliable source of information that many scholars explicitly state that they will not use it in their deliberations. As your list shows, the earliest iteration was in the mid 80s, with the current version comng from about 125 CE. Many see Luke/Acts as a deliberate response to the efectiveness of Marcion. There were several books of Acts but these are not included in your listing.

So who did Jesus pay the ransom to? The grave? Death?

John 6 only required belief in Jesus to have eternal life (cf 1 john 5:10-12). Nothing said about the need for anything more. John 10:17 only says he is going to die and get his life back. It does not state that this was needed for a person's salvation.

Why does God need people to murder his son before he is able to forgive? Why does Jesus need to plead with God?

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Thanks Perry,

I will keep your thoughts in my reference material.

If as you say Jesus said that a person only needed to believe in him, he is not saying "Believe that I am going to be killed and raised from the dead". Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the synoptists speak of obtaining salvation and eternal life in terms of obedience and good works (sheep-goats, etc.). Do the Gospel writers relate salvation to Jesus' resurrection?

I read the Josh McDowell material on the resurrection, which I will also store. This does not mean I agree with his views - which he is fully entitled to - but to show me the views of a potential reader.

It just so happens that in my research I am about to plough through the book, "The Trouble With Resurrection". I am fully aware that it is published by Polebrook Press.

Regarding the Gospels and resurrection, I note the timing of when each gospel was produced by a community and the marked differences between them in their narration of the resurrection event. Paul was the earliest chronologically. Neither he nor any of the Gospel writers had either seen or heard Jesus, and they wrote decades after the "Jesus-event", relying on oral tradition - not facts.

I have read many books, I have lived through a period as an intense Christian (giving the occasional sermon from the pulpit), and I can only judge in accordance with living for 76 years. The experience of each of us is unique and we can only judge what is practical in light of that.

There is no need for a Creator for reason and logic to exist, but if that is your view, I respect your right to hold it.

Yes, this is a daunting task. I will be briefly touching across the millennia looking objectively at what people were saying, hopefully without making judgments. There will be many distracting paths that I could follow.

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Perry,

I believe there is power in doubting, questioning.

I will want the reader to look objectively at the evidence that is available and to question themselves.

What does salvation mean to them? Is it a myth? Why should I accept these opinions? Do I want to live forever and ever? Which version of salvation, is acceptable, if any? Who was responsible for formulating these ideas?

I spend some time detailing the ceremony involved with Yom Kippur. I did that because it is a foundation of Paul's concepts. In turn, his ideas are built on in later centuries and millennia.

Am I comfortable that my concepts emanate from Yom Kippur?

All subsequent generations build on the previous ideas, with each introducing changes, evolutions. Today's ideas are but a stage, neither the original nor any of the past's subsequent stages, nor necessarily that of future generations.

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Crazyguy, You made a very valid point when you asked me why am I pursuing this. You forced me to consider the model sitting in the rear recesses of my mind.

My intention is to start with the earliest writings (J, E, and P) then move forwards to the neo-Babylonian era (D, DH, Jer, Eze, Second Isaiah), and so on, moving towards the present day through Paul, etc., etc. With that in mind, and with your question, I have drafted a very rough preliminary outline of the model in my mind.

So, for you: http://www.jwstudies.com/Preliminary_conceptual_model.png

You pointed me back to the sources of the Hebrew's sanctuary, suggesting Egyptian influences. There is merit in showing the way that the Hebrews borrowed their ideas from their neighbours, and I shall keep that in mind.

There are so many paths I could tread, but I want to steer as simplistic and objective pathway as possible. I want to see "what" and "how", but very little of "why".

I am hoping that the quotations I provide stimulate people to purchase these books and see what other ideas can be gained.

There are many doubts about the origins of these writings. Apart from Paul's letters, we do not know who any of the writers were (and I am including the OT and the NT), nor do we know who the editors (redactors) were. I shall briefly touch on this.

As with everything else I hope to include, I wish to stimulate personal research and that each person develops their own ideas, whether they agree with me or not.

I hope that another outcome will be a recognition of the power that mythology and legend holds.

Doug